UPDATE: As promised the CF staff thread is now removed. It served it’s purpose and has illustrated what I intended it to illustrate. I will say again that I am sad to see even those who were advocating peace in the thread send in removal requests. It is scary just how ingrained the ivory tower mentality is for staff. I applaud those who are not afraid and gave permission for their words to remain.
For those of you that I call friend and are on CF Staff I apologize for this in advance. I know you will not like what is below the fold so to speak. I ask you to stop reading now. If you choose to keep reading please realize that I have had enough of CF and the brutalizing of members that goes on there. You may not see it or you may not care but it has to stop. I have thought long and hard about this. I recieved what is below the fold from an anonymous source and nothing you can say will get me to reveal that source as more might be forthcoming. I am not attacking any of my friends here but you have all long known my feelings about CF and it has gotten worse now. These things must be brought into the light.
I have prayed long and hard about this. I feel that the damage done by lies and secrecy is too great to ignore any longer. I have given away all of my blessings at CF and fully expect to be banned after this posting and I accept that. I cannot stand by and watch the damage done any longer. I pray that those who read farther and are offended by my words and actions contained will forgive me. I pray that my friends who will feel betrayed by this will also forgive me. I stand by my decision. It has not been any easy decision at all to be completely honest. I do this with a heavy heart.
All correspondance in relation to this will be posted publicly immediately after removing any content. Considering this is commentary fair use does apply. But any person who owns the copyright to any single or multiple postings is free to contact me and I will remove their postings. Email correspondance to flesh99 [at] gmail [dot] com. I am very familiar with copyright and while this does in fact qualify as fair use I am offering to remove the words of anyone who wishes their words removed. This offer is made out of kindness due to this being firmly grounded in fair use. Since each post is copyrighted to the person who posted any takedown requests for the full content will be ignored and posted seperately. I have posted this with knowledge that if I do not then others will and they will likely not offer the same courtesy in removing that I am offering.
If there are any staff who want to offer commentary on their words the comments are open all you have to do is register and post. I will not remove any comments made. I give my word on that. You are welcome to accuse me of whatever you wish, attack me or others in any manner that you see fit.
This is a wake up call to CF staff. The lies and secrecy must stop. It has gone on for too long. All comments here are free game. Say whatever you like. There will be zero censorship.
This is also the first in a series. I will try and do one a week. There is enough data for that to go on for years to be honest. Here’s the kicker. I will not just be posting the problem threads. I do not want to misrepresent CF staff at all. I will be posting some instances of pretty amazing mercy. The sad thing is that there are more instances of staff outright abusing their power than there are of them being merciful. There are some wonderful people on staff and some evil people. You might not be able to tell that from this post but I assure you that it is the case. I want only for the abuses to stop and therefore am posting what I will be posting here. I will keep posting my normal posts as well.
For more on CF staff drop over to Seeb’s site and read his expose.
REMOVED CF STAFF THREAD
This is 14 pages of staff deciding who can and cannot wear an icon on a message board. It is complete with gossip about members where the members cannot see the gossip much less defend themselves. It is a great example of staff dividing amongst themselves and the “majority” winning without regards to the minority at all. It is an example of how horrible staff can treat each other and how they make their decisions in a vacuum without any regard for the actual effects of said decisions.
This is an amazing thread to be honest. It was started due to a former staff member wanting to get another member’s marriage icon removed. The funny thing about this is that the member is actually a male on his birth certificate married to someone who is a female on their birth certificate and neither have had any sort of surgery and ar eboth happy in the marriage. It is the product of a sick mind who wants to enforce their perceptions on everyone around them.
Note that throughout the thread those who do not believe that CF should have a definition of marriage insult and berate those that do. It happens on both sides but the side that would be considered conservative is much more on the attack. Here is where it gets weird for me. I agree with CF’s definition of marriage. I agree that on a Christian website it should be enforced in some manner. I completely disagree with how this came about, the methods by which it was implemented, and the complete disreagrd for the feelings of those who disagree and those who would be affected by the decision. The overall attitude is “they are wrong and going to hell so why should we care about their feelings”. It is never stated in those words but it is there if you look.
Having heard from staff who were on the losing side of the debate they had their feelings hurt and felt that other staff did not even consider them good Christians. They were hurt and not one staff member apologized. They jumped out to enforce this new rule on members they knew did not comply with the new rule. They changed the ability to select your icon to prevent people from changing it back after they enforced their definition upon them. They did this with no remorse or any sembelance of kindness. It was a slash and burn attack. It was completely lacking in love. It was one the least Christian things I have seen in a long time. It doesn’t matter if I agree with the rule at all. What matters is the attitudes presented in these posts and the subsequent fallout.
This complete disregard for the feelings of those on the losing side of the debate along with the complete disregard for the members to which staff is supposed to minister and serve. Nowhere in scripture are we to be anything except patient, loving, kind, and peacheful. This was none of that. This thread is exactly like many others to which I have access going all the way back to 2002 for various anonymous sources. The very fact that there are so many anonymous sources shows exactly what secrecy does for staff.
As stated I will remove the words of anyone who regrets their words and wishes them to remain secret. The only caveat is that I will post the takedown request after removing their words.
John 3:20
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
You will see some like Newman who appears to be concerned about the strife and on the surface that is a good thing, the problem is that they did nothing at all about it and let it continue.
For the record, as the famous “seebs” that this was originally about (it was instigated by a post by drstevej, and brought to exec by ksen, who at the time firmly believed that I had gotten drstevej banned from another site for insulting my marriage), I think the whole thing is somewhere between horrifying and hilarious.
Flesh99,
Remove my posts from your blog. You did not have permission to post my or any other staffers posts on your blog. Since you are quoting other’s private words without any of their consent, you need to remove the entire thread.
daveleau
CF Staff
As promised I am posting the takedown request and will be editing out Dave’s words. It is interesting to see who has something to hide and who does not. Certain staff members have said in public their posts will remain. I will attend to each takedown request as received and in a timely manner.
Let me state that while removed Dave’s posts were actually well thought out and some of the best conservative posts on the thread. It is truly sad he felt a need to have them removed.
I take ownership of my words. You have permission to post anything I’ve written that doesn’t have sensitive personal information about a poster in it. If you do come across something that does have sensitive personal information about a poster, please redact that poster’s name and the specific bit of information about them, for their own privacy.
Teshi I would never ever post a member’s personal information. That would go against everything I would like to accomplish. I do thank you for commenting here and owning your words. It is a nice contrast to Dave’s request.
Oh, I know you wouldn’t, I just want to make sure that *I* am operating 100% in good faith, and so I needed to say it whether or not I thought you’d do it. I don’t know whether that makes sense, but it does in my head, heh.
Hello Flesh99 or GoingGoingGone
Please remove all my posts from your blog. As a member and staff member who truly has no bias against anyone on CF and donate time to help CF maintain a level of peace; this is very sad to see posted. If you really like for CF to maintain peace and harmony, hope you would re-think this all and keep in mind, there are many staff members who truly care about all members at CF.
Peace
I’m not CF Staff, but it is likely I will be quoted fairly often in Staff posts. I give permission for those quotes to remain, accurate or not. I will, of course, post corrections to inaccuracies.
“Please remove my posts in this thread. You do not have my permission to reproduce any of my copy written words without my expressed prior knowledge and consent. Furthermore, you do not have my permission to reproduce any of my posts in the future either. I will check frequently and will note any time you publish my material without my consent.”
Oh and on a personal note - Thanks for rendering Jenn a weeping mess in my office most of the day.
You really are my hero now - Was it worth destroying the friendships you had with both she and I?
P_G your guilt tactics will have no effect on me. This decision is one of the single most damaging things CF has accomplished so far. I could not let it stand. I did not mean to hurt Jenn and I insured that the world knew she had had nothing to do with this. The simple fact of the matter is this decision and the subsequent fallout was done in a decidedly non-Christian manner and I am tired of seeing CF drive people away from the faith. The casualty list is growing by the day and it is just plain wrong. No-one one else would man up and be a whistle blower and it had to be done. Staff was way to secure in their gossip and subsequent lies about that gossip that it couldn’t be allowed to stand. I could have started a blogger page under a different name and posted this completely anonymously but I chose to post it here because I do not have anything to hide.
I do not need your permission to post your words. What I have done is covered under fair use and the removal is only done out of kindness. If you are worried about your words being made public then maybe something is wrong with your words. I will remove your posts as soon as I finish what I have already started for this evening. Thank you for using the comments it makes it easier not having to post your removal request from email.
As for the hurt caused how about the hurt you have caused members with this decision? Your brothers and sisters in Christ? Do they matter? The difference is that Jenn does matter to me. Jenn matters greatly to me. I knew that this wouldn’t be easy for her but I don’t see her gossiping about members in the thread or being mean at all. Anything that would ever get posted from Jenn would only show how kind she is. It is frankly too bad the same cannot be said of you.
GraceInHim as promised I will remove your posts. If you truly care about the state of things at CF you would realize that a false peace brought about by eliminating the opposition is not peace at all. I do know many staff care about CF and have never stated differently. It is just sad the posts from the CR do not reflect this most of the time. The problem is those that are kind and care about CF soon learn not to debate in the CR and pretty much just stay away from any controversy because they will just get run over. I know this because I used to be a master at doing it. And from the recent leaks it is easy to see that nothing has changed at all. The kind hearted really don’t last on staff and that is one of the biggest problems at CF.
A friendship based–at least in part–on shared secret shame will always be too fragile to endure.
Flesh, would you please remove my posts in this thread, as well as any parts where I have been quoted. I have nothing to hide, but my posts were for the Staff of Christian Forums and no one else. If you or anyone else would like to know my views on any issue, you are more than welcome to send me a PM on the site, or contact me for my email address. I would appreciate it if you refrained from posting any more of my words without my expressed permission (which you currently do not have).
Shalom,
Steffi
Steffi I will remove your posts because you did not use the cookie cutter request that I have a mailbox full of right now. As for future posts I make no promises whatsoever. I am within my rights under the fair use doctrine. If there is anything to be hidden I would suggest that people start coming clean. I am not addressing that at you. I honestly see nothing you have written that needs to be hidden so please do not take that personally.
Hi there will you please remove my posts in this thread. You did not ask my permission to copy any of my posts or ask me to consent to my work being posted. I have nothing I am ashamed of posting, but I protest the invasion of my privacy in this way.
Furthermore, you do not have my permission to copy or post any of my posts in the future either.
As you promised to remove these posts when requested I am expecting to see them gone. Thank you.
Les…..aka poppinskw
As it has been ordered that staff ask me to remove their posts and they are all sending the cookie cutter response I am going to make this easy. The whole staff thread will be removed when I get home from church tomorrow. Not before. I will not spend my whole night culling the thread. But tomorrow around 1330 CST it will be all be gone provided I do not go to lunch afterwards if so then it may be 1400 before I get around to it.
And to save Exec the trouble of issuing the order next time no such kindness will be offered. Any further CF threads will stay up for 48 hours then be removed. It is obvious that someone of someones are scared at what might come out. For the record I will post what I please as it covered by fair use. Either quit with the secrecy and lies or continue to have them exposed. Cull the liars and abusers or this keeps happening.
lol i totally barfed all over my laptop after reading that
Oh, ’cause I haven’t said so yet:
Mega-props for the Transmet theme!
Let me first say that what you’re doing is wrong. That said, you can leave my posts alone (I know there weren’t any in this “post” of yours, though), as long as you don’t rip them straight out of context. I see a post ripped out of context, I will be asking for removal.
s_gunter you are welcome to believe what I am doing is wrong. I applaud your willingness to not have hidden what you have said. I will rip nothing out of context as that would only cast doubt on anything I wish to accomplish. If I post a staff thread again, and I might not as I have thought of other methods, I will again post it in full. I do not wish to paint staff in a bad light overall. There are simply abuses and lies that must come to an end. There are plenty of good people on staff but much like a police department a few bad apples can negate all the good that is done. It is time the bad apples were revealed and rooted out so that staff can flourish.
I am not even talking liberals or conservatives. I couldn’t really care any less where someone falls in that area. What I care about is staff lying to members and ignoring the damage simple decisions can do even when it is being pointed out over and over by both members and staff. This was not about the decision as I happen to agree with it but rather about the resulting pain it caused because of the lies surrounding it and the pain caused by the manner in which it was implemented.
The “Internet Law” practiced by CF Staff amuses me to no end.
You know, I’m amazed so many people actually bothered to respond to this. I’d think it shocking that anyone really cares.
this has to be the saddest thing i’ve ever seen…. its a website, dude. I mean to allow a simple little website consume you to this point… its time to turn off the computer and find something constructive to do with your time
I have to fully agree with the poster above, this is just disturbingly trivial and trite. If you want to see a change so badly, why not join staff on this site and actually do something rather than playing heroics on a blog somewhere and hoping anyone actually takes the time to read it?
I know it seems sad to imagine people putting this much time into trying to redeem a broken thing. Christian theology is often strange to outsiders. Just accept that the people involved generally view it as important.
Given that flesh99 has been on staff, and has tried repeatedly to fix things from the inside, I think it’s safe to say that it’s fairly hard.
It’s teh interwebs, man. Those who foot the bill for the upkeep of the site are the ones who should be concerned about the way it’s run. There are more important things than wailing and moaning about the unfair treatment of the membership at a website. This isn’t Christian theology being discussed, it’s posting staff information from a website without asking for permission in an effort to spite people.
I know enough of Christian theology to know that a whistle blower approach is not the Biblical approach. And i know enough of human psychology to know that this can only deepen whatever problems there are between the OP and the staff at this website rather than work to solve it.
Read the Bible some time. The procedure for dealing with disputes is pretty well established.
Matthew 18
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’[b] 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
—————–
But how did Christ treat the tax collectors and heathens?
you said: “There are simply abuses and lies that must come to an end. ” and “What I care about is staff lying to members ….”
I would clarification of what lies have been said to members. Having read the thread I was involved in again, and read the threads on this subject in the members area of CF, I see no lies at all.
I saw staff clarify that they were only using the faith icon to differentiate who can post in one small forum area that was for discussions about marriage in the Christian only area. I did not see any official statement that Christian Forums were judgeing people who have same gender marriages. We just defined what we meant by the “marriage” symbol for the purpose of access to that one area of CF.
I did see official statements that there is to be no “witch hunt” by staff. I saw staff posts supporting the “no witch hunt” policy. (I am one of the staff that support the “no witch hunt” policy.)
As far as staff disagreeing with one another and debating issues, that is common whenever you have a group of people with differing perspectives and beliefs. I do not believe the answer is to create a false sense of “unity” by having people give up their beliefs for the sake of harmony. I don’t believe that is what Christ taught either. I remember Him directly calling someone a hypocrit. (Matthew 23:13) Do you think Christ should have lowered his standard rather than hurt their feelings? Sometimes we need to speak up and hold strong to our beliefs.
If someone is hurt because I disagree with them, am I the cause of their hurt? I believe that “hurt” feeling is more likely to be because of the belief that everything “must be fair”.
The truth is that in life not everything is “fair”. That is an unrealistic expectation. Often the actions of others seem “unfair” to me. Your blog and accusations against me as a staff person is unfair. But I am not hurt by it. I am disappointed that you would choose to say false things about me, but I am not hurt.
I have no right to judge someone who has homosexual thoughts and desires. I have passions and lusts that are not the same, but that also tempt me to do things that are sins, like over eating. I have had lustful thoughts about certain male movie stars who I am clearly not married to. Since I believe that all sins are wrong, I do not consider homosexuality to be any worse than my over eating for example. Therefore, I am not in the place to judge them.
However, there are standards in life that are set by various organizations. My church has the standard that homosexual behavior is to be discouraged and we do not recognize homosexual marriages. But we recognize a difference between thought and behavior. While it is wonderful to have complete control over one’s thoughts, our standards focus on more on behaviors.
Do I think that the standards set by my church need to be the same ones that CF uses? No! (Furthermore, I believe that if someone does not like the standards of my Church, they should leave and find a church they are more comfortable in.)
But at the same time, I do think CF has the right to set some standards for access to certain areas. When I support those standards it does not mean that I am judging someone who does not meet the standard. I have no right to judge them. Further, to be clear, I do not think someone whose standards are different then me are better or worse Christians than I am. I am a pathetic example of a Christian even though my Church has high standards that I agree with.
Another example, most countries have a rule that adults are not to do sexual things to children under a certain age. Lets use the example of a five year old child. We have rules and standards that say that a 22 year old is not to be doing sexual things with a five year old. That is a standard that almost everyone agrees with.
But not everyone agrees with that. There are people who think that this should be allowed and they feel judged by society when their sexual behavior with a child is exposed. They feel hurt because of the standard.
Should we change that standard to prevent their feeling hurt? No!
I am a therapist for sexual offenders, btw. I do hold them to the standard and I try to help them learn to follow that standard. But I have no right to judge them. I may not have ever done that sin, but I have done other sins.
I am a sinner. I try not to sin but I still keep sinning. Sometimes I do the same sin more than once. Some sins I do nearly every day. I repent, I want to stop and I still sin.
Given that, I have no right to judge others.
If you feel that I have abused members I ask you to tell me privately. I try to help people to understand and follow CF rules but I do not wish to judge them personally.
If you dislike CF so much I wonder why you want anything to do with it? There are a ton of other places to hang out. And I don’t believe for one minute that any member is being forced to remain active on that board. If they feel someone has abused them or lied to them or is judging them unfairly, then rather than stay and be hurt, I suggest they let their friends know where to find them and remove the favorite link from their browser.
If I am the cause of anyones hurt, I would like them to tell me privately so that I can learn and become a better Christian. But if they are hurt because CF has a standard, then they need to chalk it up to more proof that things in life are sometimes unfair and move to different place that has standards they like more.
I went to a website not long ago to check it out. Within one day I had people telling me that I am not a Christian because I am Eastern Orthodox. I didn’t like it one bit. I asked if that was acceptable by the standards of the forum site and was told that it was ok. I left that website and have not been back.
If CF set a standard I couldn’t live with, I would speak out using the normal methods available to me and if the result was that the standard was not going to be changed, I would leave. It is only a website. My friends and I could keep in touch through email or another website.
I hope you don’t see my comment as judgemental toward you. I only offer you a suggestion for your own peace of mind. I am disappointed with your blog but I am not hurt by it. You have a right to your point of view. I just hope that you will respect the rights of staff as much as you wish us to respect the rights of members. (After all, staff are members too.)
Rather than publically attack me for anything I have done, I invite you to pm me through CF and I will give you a way to contact me outside of CF so you can tell me my faults for my edification.
you’re absolutely right
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” - Matthew 18
1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For each one shall bear his own load. - Galatians 6
i don’t see it saying anywhere saying that releasing confidential information of any kind of organisation you’re no longer affiliated with is permitted. If he wanted to work for reconciliation he should have done so when he was on staff, but as he is no longer on staff he should be putting it behind him and moving on. Refusing to do so and holding a grudge against them would go against
Let all bitterness, wrath, [b]anger[/b], clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. - Ephesians 4
26 “Be angry, and do not sin”:[f] do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. - eph 4
8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. - Col 3
and therefore the following would apply:
1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces. - Matt 7
and if any further study is requiredon settling disputes in a peaceful and Godly manner i’d recommend the following book by Ken Sande… http://www.amazon.com/Peacemaker-Biblical-Resolving-Personal-Conflict/dp/0801064856/sr=1-1/qid=1163367465/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-2277541-0282568?ie=UTF8&s=books
[…] Recently, I ran across this blog. […]
Xenia: The very person that brought up seeb’s name in the thread posted publicly that no members were discussed. That is a lie plain and simple. It is a lie from someone who has been handed the power to make policy for CF. It is a lie from someone who is supposed to be above reproach and be a leader for the site. Liars should not be leaders.
I have not mentioned you by name nor do I have any intention of doing so in the future. You are not one of the responsible parties for the abuses and lies that are rampant at CF and as such I have nothing to come to you about. If I had I would have come to you.
sahrica: It’s Matthew 18. Since you want to claim to know enough about scripture to say I am not following my own theology it’s right there in black and white on the page. Let me save you the trouble and just post it for you:
Matt 18:15 (NASB)”If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16″But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17″If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
did you take two or three people with you to speak with the leadership and failing that did you take the matter to the church? (note: church, not random strangers who happen to stumble across your blog ;)) Where does the Bible permit what is in effect gossip?
sahrica I did not post this with any arrogance. In fact I posted this with great personal loss.
Nowhere in scripture does it preclude releasing information either. You are arguing from silence on that point.
I am no longer staff but I am member of the site and am tired of the abuses. I posted factual information along with commentary because nothing else has worked. You can disagree all you like but I will not be persuaded otherwise.
So start your own site and quit whining about it. A public blog on teh interwebs is hardly the Church.
You see, therein lies the problem. There are a billion sites on the net, if you disagree with one, move on to another that suites your tastes more, or start your own. But to legalize scripture to the point where it overshadows the completely absurd nature of posting private information on a blog because you disagree with how things are done is probably one of the more sad things that can be done with it. Life ain’t fair, but the owners of said website have the right to run it as they see fit.
its interesting you make such a big deal about those who didn’t want their comments posted must have something to hide, but when i try to reply to something you said to me i was considered to be a spammer…hm…
anyway… obviously you don’t mind being the dissenter but don’t like seeing people dissent against you so rest assured, this will be my last comment. I just wanted to be sure what i tried to say before did get through
did you take two or three people with you to speak with the leadership and failing that did you take the matter to the church? (note: church, not random strangers who happen to stumble across your blog ;)) The Bible does not endorse the releasing of what is in effect gossip, since we have no way of knowing if you’re telling the truth or making it up to make people you don’t like look bad. In fact….
13 A talebearer reveals secrets,
But he who is of a faithful spirit conceals a matter. - Prov 11
you said: “I have not mentioned you by name nor do I have any intention of doing so in the future.” in a comment directed toward me.
But you not only mentioned me by name, you quoted me word for word in around five or six posts that I made in the staff area of Christian Forums.
I am asking that you address me directly in the future about any thing I have done to hurt you or abuse you rather than quoting my words and implying that I am being abusive by saying those words.
Then you said that “staff lie” and “staff abuse” and I am staff. I guess you meant “some staff lie” and “some staff abuse”?
sahrica: The spam system on this site is automated. It is the Spam Karma plugin. I don’t mark anyone as spam at all. In fact I will look through and see if I can find your comment. It is amusing that you don’t realize it’s an automated system and want to use that to say I try and quash dissent…
Xenia: Your comments are not me addressing you. I am going to continue my series of articles. I may have been convinced that posting whole threads is not the way to go but the series will continue. I am sorry if you disagree with that. You are right that I meant some staff lie and some staff abuse. But staff is an entity as such. If a staff member lies and nothing is done about when it is pointed out then the institution of staff is guilty.
sahrica: I think you will find your comments were marked as possible spam and merely waiting for approval. It’s been done now.
I frankly don’t care if you agree with my methods. The fact is that I considered this prayerfully and with counsel. In answer to your question Matt 18 was attempted this was the final step. There are plenty of other issues that fall under the same category. Whether or not you agree is not really a concern of mine. I will admit I don’t know if this will change anything or help in any manner but it the only remedy left at this point.
CF lost another Christian over the decision made in this thread. And by lost I mean he deconverted. This is not the first time. In fact the ratio of conversion to deconversion is staggering. It is sickening in fact. So you can harass me for my methods all you like but I intend to see things change.
There are plenty of other remedies, but for one thing, you need to examine your motives for doing this, as well as examine the issue itself. In a lot of situations, going to extremes like this may be a reflection of something other than a valid problem that’s being sought remedy for. If this were the case, on a Christian site, the support you’d have wouldn’t be small - and breaching confidentiality in whatever way is dishonest and lacking integrity, even if you were on staff at this website. I suggest reading James 4 sometime.
No witch hunts?
Ya wanna chime in here, Nitz? It sure looked to like they were getting their largest scales ready to compare your mass to that of a duck.
Hi there, first of all, thank you for removing that thread, and I mean that sincerly. I was one that asked that my posts be removed, not because I was ashamed or concerned about anything I said being wrong, but because I gave my word on confidentiality, I could not in good Conscious give my agreement to a post in a thread that was covered by my promise.
If I post anything on the boards or in another site, then that is a different thing and not covered by my promise, these I do indeed give you permission and my blessing to copy and post where you like. I am concerned that the very people that you are concerned about, could be worse off without the staff that will work for them and stand with them. I am not angry, I am dissapointed yes, but that is because once again, I personally have to retreat to a place in my life where I cannot trust, maybe a selfish reason for me, but there it is.
Matthew 18 has been mentioned, I saw this put into action in a church I used to attend, and it was very emotional and very sad, and yet one could also see the positive in it, because it did bring about change, but only because the person that was in sin was counselled, supported, loved. In the telling of it to the church, there was only the person that was concerned that was dealt with, not the other innocents, this thread is not the same as Matthew 18 IMHO.
I know your heart means well and I know you are concerned, I just have to ask, is it of any benefit damaging the very people that are the ones that are indeed trying to do a good job and work for good there?
Blessings
Les
My spam filter is acting up so comments may disappear but as soon as I log in I will reinstate them. I assure you that no manual removal is taking place at all and I am reinstating them as they are brought into the queue.
trepidity
I have not broken confidence. None of this was information I received as a result of being on staff. Some other party violated confidence and I have used that information to bring to light outright lies from people running the site.
As for garnering support on the site itself there is a rule that you cannot comment on moderator actions anywhere at anytime thereby killing all dissent and allowing the dissenters and abused to be banned. If there were another method it would have been employed. This method assured the information would be out there. I am sure this post was copied and circulated to more eyes than any thread on CF would have lasted long enough to be.
poppinskw: I have asked myself that question and the answer is simple. I did not violate anyone’s trust. The source gave me the information knowing full well what would be done with it and the following pieces of information. The damage done was already done before I posted this information. Staff’s confidence was violated before I hit the post button at all. If anything I have shown that leaks still exist and I assert they always will. Nothing said in the staff forums has any assurance of remaining private and never has. It is a false sense of security. The innocents were show to be such by their words and there were lots of good words in the thread.
I do not see myself doing more damage but rather attempting to correct lies and abuses while also showing that damage has already been done on all levels.
Re #48
For example, I read through that entire thread last week.
”
“CF lost another Christian over the decision made in this thread. And by lost I mean he deconverted. This is not the first time. In fact the ratio of conversion to deconversion is staggering. It is sickening in fact. So you can harass me for my methods all you like but I intend to see things change.”
If someone stops believing in Christ as Savior because of a decision on a web site, I am glad he was never called to stand for Christ in REAL persecution .
I question the true spiritual status of anyone that “de converts” to begin with, but anyone that loses faith over a web site had little to none to begin with.
flesh
I’m disappointed. I just got back from a trip to I belive your state, if you’re still in Texas. I find a pm from someone quoting my private words (which you’ve now removed, thank you) from a private matter posted in a private place.
the ends do not justify the means.
Please, I am asking that you not quote any more of my private communications without my permission.
tommy
Terri - rnmomof7
It doesn’t matter why they lost their faith. A series of abuses by staff at the world’s largest Christian forum is frankly enough to be honest. The world’s largest Christian message board with liars at the steering wheel and manipulation to spare.
How about you publicly flaming members? What happened to you Terri? I remember a totally different person. You could be a bulldog but you were rarely unkind. I am sorry you see this differently than I see it but you have taken a turn somewhere I do not understand. I have never seen you light into members as you did recently. Are you alright? I an genuinely concerned about you. I am glad you posted here even if you are angry with me.
Tommy I have to disagree with you on the ends not justifying the means. I did not break my word. I did not break the law. What I have done has exposed at least on liar at the top level of CF staff to the world. There is more coming but you have no need to worry bout your words. Only if things are lied about will I post staff threads. If you trust the leadership not to deny things that are factual then you have absolutely nothing at all to worry about. If the guilty choose to lie about factual accounts I will refute their lies by whatever means are at my disposal. If they choose not to respond or simply try and justify their actions then no staff threads will be posted. The truth must be known. And no agreement that I have made is as important as stopping the loss of Christians caused by CF.
Everyone wants to bring up my word. If I promised a pimp I would collect money for him would anyone be worried about it if I didn’t keep my word? If I give my word to liars who violate my trust and act badly then I am not obligated morally or legally to keep my word.
As for your posts Tommy. It is a shame you didn’t want them public. They were great posts and should have been seen by the world. I did not violate your trust. Someone else did by giving them to me. I am not bound to keep quiet when I have damming evidence of lies at the top of the food chain. Read my most recent post though. You have some amazing staff out there and while they didn’t allow me to give their names they did make a difference.
yes, you did violate my trust. I have not said you violated your word or the law, but you DID violate my trust. I used to trust you, now I don’t; the Mark I remember would not think that in an attempt to stop folks from being hurt that is is ok to hurt others. You have been told already about one person you hurt. I’m another.
RE: #45
This is Nitz
As CaDan says there was indeed a witch hunt and I was one of it’s targets. Now, some may not appreciate the term ‘witch hunt’ but when you go out looking for ‘witches’ and you find someone that just might be a witch, and then you accuse them of being a witch, start questioning them about their witchery, start punishing them for witchcraft and then warn them that if they try being a witch in public one more time it’s going to go hard for them … why, that’s what we call a Witch Hunt!
It wasn’t until this week when the icon thing was re-announced and I essentially blew up publicly in front of exec and everyone that anything was done about it.
There were staff members that acted good and decently throughout this thing though. I hesitate to mention their names, as it seems that anyone caught on the ‘wrong side’ might, well, be subject to a witch hunt
It’s sad to see that rather than recognize the problems Flesh’s leaked material exposed and take steps to prevent it that staff are far more interested in condemning him for posting it in the first place. It’s just another layer in the wall of secrecy that insulates staff from the harm their actions causes to members.
Tommy explain how I violated your trust? I posted information from the source that actually violated your trust and you are projecting your anger onto me. Nothing I receive is covered under any agreements. You tell me how allowing a liar on Exec helps the largest message board representing Christ on the internet is allowed and doesn’t hurt anyone. You know as well as I do that an organization is only as trustworthy as its leadership. What does this say about CF? Now it’s public Tommy and that cannot be taken back. So your words got caught up in exposing a liar. I will not apologize for that. Staff owes the membership an apology for allowing a proven liar to remain at the helm. You all could see his posts refering to seebs and his public posts claiming no-one was mentioned by name in the staff thread. This is a lie. There are no two ways about it. It was allowed, it was not removed, and subsequently the person responsible was promoted to Exec and given control over policy. If you think for one second that this is a representation of Christ then you are wrong. The organization is wrong. And the public deconversions prove that. You don’t approve of my methods and that’s fine by me but I will not apologize for outing a liar.
You said: “Xenia: Your comments are not me addressing you. I am going to continue my series of articles. I may have been convinced that posting whole threads is not the way to go but the series will continue. I am sorry if you disagree with that. You are right that I meant some staff lie and some staff abuse. But staff is an entity as such. If a staff member lies and nothing is done about when it is pointed out then the institution of staff is guilty. ”
By this reasoning if one or two nonstaff break rules we should believe that all members are rule breakers?
I am not in agreement.
Further, God does not say: “well, a minority of people are sinners in that town, therefore I will distroy it.” In fact, the bible account I am thinking of said that he would not destroy the town if one person in it was righteous.
I do not have the power to stop people from using vague terms or misunderstanding a question and appearing to have told a lie. (The most recent thread on this subject did not mention any members name.) I do not have the power to stop someone from being heavy handed when the policy of CF is to error on the side of leniency. I do speak up if I don’t like something (and some staffers would like me gone as a result.) But I can’t do more than use the avenues I have available to try to prick someone’s conscience.
Never the less, you feel justified in hurting me and many others who have done no wrong by posting our words here without our concent.
Given that this blog will have no effect in the end (based on history), your huring people just seems capricious to me and unjustified. I am not hurt, again, I am disappointed. But I will not treat you differently then I treat my fellow staff. When I don’t like something, I speak up.
Tommy, the problem here is that we have run out of options. Many CF staff continue to, day after day, violate the trust of the members, then cover it up and pretend it never happened.
So, what do we do? Do we just keep letting it happen? Do we let people make public statements that are false, and that are known to be false by the people making them, so they can save face and pretend that the forum is good?
Seems to me you’re sort of a pastoral sort. Haven’t you noticed how, when people get to pretend they’re sinless, it can be a stumbling block for them?
If you have better ideas, please suggest them. Me, I’m gonna say what’s true, and call people on lies, and if that means that SOOPER SEKRIT stuff gets posted, well, that’s what happens. I do not doubt for a moment that there is sin. I live in a fallen world; if I do nothing, I sin by omission, if I take the only steps available to me to address these wrongs, I sin by commission. Should I let dozens of people suffer horribly because I’m too pure to get my own hands dirty?
I’ll take the hit. I was raised Lutheran, after all; “Here I stand; I can do no other.” I will stand before God, flaws and all, and beg forgiveness for my weaknesses, and the harm that comes from them… But I will not stand by any longer while innocents are attacked in the name of purity.
Funny , because I am worried about you, you are a completely different person than I knew.
I will not go into details publicly how you are different, but I have been concerned about you for a long while, you are not the Mark I knew.
I still wish you and your family well and I still feel attached to your baby